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Ever since he left the White House under a post-Charlottesville cloud in , after six and a half months as President Donald Trump鈥檚 chief adviser, Stephen Bannon has proceeded to build a new career as a political Svengali to a variety of far right-movements in Europe. So far, he's been in that venture, helping right-wing elements gain ground in France, Italy聽and elsewhere.听

And now, it seems, he has his eye on making his 鈥減opulist revolution鈥� a global one by expanding to Australia.

鈥淚 absolutely see Australia is going to be a hotbed of populism,鈥� he told an interviewer for Australian Broadcasting Corporation鈥檚 (ABC) top news program last week. 鈥淛ust knowing the cussedness and grit of the Australian people. This revolution is global 鈥� it鈥檚 coming to Australia.鈥�

Bannon鈥檚 instinct for controversy remains intact. The interview, with Sarah Ferguson of ABC鈥檚 highly regarded broadcast, set off a controversy within the Australian press and elsewhere about free speech and the ethics of journalism.

Coming on the heels of Bannon鈥檚 from the upcoming New Yorker Festival 鈥� which raised a similar controversy in the United States 鈥� the Ferguson interview raised questions in Australia about when (and how) it鈥檚 appropriate to give a propagandist like Bannon a platform for sowing disinformation. And indeed, the interview was problematic in how it failed to counter many of Bannon鈥檚 鈥渁lternative facts.鈥�

ABC鈥檚 defenders saw it as a matter of robust free speech. 鈥淕ood grief. Journalism is about resisting a retreat to enclaves,鈥� Guardian Australia political editor Katharine Murphy. 鈥淚t's about getting people out of them, and debating ideas, in civil and rational fashion. If it's all enclaves, we might as well give it away. We aren't helping. We are making things worse.鈥�

Others faulted the interview not for giving Bannon a platform, but for failing to give its audience a more factual context. 鈥淔erguson's interview provided minimal context and lacked rigour,鈥� wrote media critic , 鈥渞educing the experience to little more than an opportunity for Bannon to peddle his tired ideology, relatively unchallenged. Although we had been urged to open our minds to the 鈥榙ifferent ideas鈥� proffered by Bannon, nothing new emerged.鈥�

Some critics, notably , objected to some of Ferguson鈥檚 assertions during the conversation, particularly her apparent concession to Bannon鈥檚 insistence that he isn鈥檛 racist or hasn鈥檛 helped promote racist beliefs.

To her credit, Ferguson did work to tackle the racism underlying much of the ideology Bannon promotes. However, as Wilson noted, the whole enterprise ran aground in an exchange after she asked him pointedly,聽鈥淗ow do you stop economic nationalism morphing into something that is essentially racist?鈥�

Bannon: I don鈥檛 think economic nationalism has anything to do with race, in fact, what I keep saying here is, remember, it doesn鈥檛 matter if you are about your religion, it doesn鈥檛 matter your ethnicity, your color, it doesn鈥檛 matter your gender, it doesn鈥檛 matter your sexual preference. All of that鈥檚 totally irrelevant.

Ferguson: You say, that, and I鈥檝e watched lots of interviews, and I鈥檝e watched people ask you or accuse you in various ways of being a racist, and there鈥檚 no evidence that that鈥檚 what you are.

In truth, there鈥檚 fairly abundant evidence of exactly that. Bannon himself boasted to Mother Jones reporter , when he was still publisher and CEO of Breitbart News, that 鈥淏reitbart is the platform for the alt-right.鈥� Moreover, as Posner鈥檚 piece explained in depth, this was not an empty boast: Breitbart had by then become a cesspool of white-nationalist ideas and talking points.

聽later laid bare the extent to which Breitbart鈥檚 editors during Bannon's tenure cultivated relationships with white nationalists and other far-right extremists, particularly through the offices of his onetime prot茅g茅, provocateur聽Milo Yiannopoulos. The collusion included openly cultivating聽neo-Nazi elements in their information sources,聽and commingling their activism with ostensibly mainstream journalists.

As with many far-right ideologues, however, actions speak louder than words. During Bannon鈥檚 tenure at Breitbart, its frequently dubious news coverage became a favorite source of shared information among radical-right ideologues, including neo-Nazis. Breitbart鈥檚 comments sections, moreover, were an open sewer full of genuinely hateful racist, misogynist聽and antisemitic language.

Bannon himself has endorsed openly racist ideologues such as , author of the bigoted screed The Camp of the Saints, as well as Italian fascist thinker .听

Ferguson, though, seemed to suggest that the racism inherent in Bannon鈥檚 political activism was at worst an unintended side-effect. She continued,聽鈥淏ut do you understand that what that group of people, the particularly disenfranchised white workers in America, how that turns into racism?鈥�

鈥淭hat鈥檚 the thing,鈥� answered Bannon. 鈥淭he white workers in this country are not racist. Do we have an element, like the guys who tried to march here the other day, how many guys showed up? Six. My point is, I come from the American South. OK? It鈥檚 such an infinitesimal, small percentage of people, and they鈥檙e only made important because the left media gives them a microphone! The other day we had thousands of police officers and hundreds of media, and what, six guys showed up? Twenty? It was nothing. It鈥檚 a joke!鈥�

Bannon used this defense throughout the interview. Questioned by Ferguson about his hard-edged rhetoric about the聽coming November elections, he downplayed the innate violence and explained that 鈥渢he country is coming apart鈥� and is 鈥渜uite divided.鈥� He claimed that voters weren鈥檛 responding to 鈥渇ear and anger鈥� as much as 鈥渞ationality鈥�: 鈥淚 think working-class people and middle-class people in this country realize that something is wrong.鈥�

Bannon鈥檚 attempt at whitewashing the street violence of a racist聽"alt-right" movement he not only embraced once but actively encouraged didn鈥檛 fly with Ferguson, who pointedly noted that 鈥渁 year ago it wasn鈥檛 a joke,鈥� before showing footage of neo-Nazis engaging in violence in Charlottesville.

Bannon retorted,聽鈥淲ell, what happened a year ago, and I鈥檝e said this from Day One, the neo-Confederates, the neo-Nazis, the KKK have no place in modern American society.鈥�

In reality, Bannon from Day One has welcomed the participation of such elements, including (according to the Buzzfeed expos茅) input on Breitbart's news stories, as well as their contributions in the Breitbart comments section.听He once that the comments were the best thing in the publication: 鈥淚t was always great to hear what the hobbits had to say because at the end of the day, what they had to say was what mattered most. This whole movement, it鈥檚 really the top of the first inning.鈥�

The interview by this point had become an extended exercise by Bannon聽of聽gaslighting Ferguson and her audience, especially after she pointed out the inadequacy of Trump鈥檚 post-Charlottesville remarks: 鈥淵ou know what an unambiguous declaration against people wielding swastikas sounds like, and that鈥檚 not what we heard.鈥�

Bannon blustered,聽鈥淧resident Trump has been adamant about that. He has condemned the neo-Nazis, condemned the KKK, he has condemned the neo-Confederates, yet we鈥檙e hearing what the mainstream media wants you to hear.鈥�

In reality, Trump鈥檚 only statement condemning the radical right (鈥淩acism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans鈥�), issued two days after the events in Charlottesville, was explicit, but also anodyne and unconvincing. Even alt-right guru Richard Spencer saying: 鈥淥nly a dumb person would take those sentences seriously.鈥�

Perhaps even worse, a day later at a press conference, many of the tiki-torch-bearing marchers as 鈥渧ery fine people.鈥� More recently, according to Bob Woodward鈥檚 expos茅 Fear: Trump in the White House, that the statement condemning the far right was 鈥渢he biggest f------ mistake I鈥檝e made.鈥�

Bannon, however, was intent on casting this as media misreporting. "They鈥檙e never gonna let Trump off the hook on this, they鈥檙e just not gonna do it, they鈥檙e gonna continue to pound that,"聽he said. "But I鈥檝e got to tell you, as long as you don鈥檛 take responsibility 鈥� there鈥檚 two things the mainstream media have done. Number one, they鈥檝e given a bunch of marginal, dangerous people a platform."

With one magical brush, Bannon was attempting erase his long history of being one of the key people who provided a platform for the alt-right. Ferguson returned to that: 鈥淏ut you know how to harness their anger too, don鈥檛 you?鈥� she asked. 鈥淵ou鈥檝e worked out a way to try and separate yourself and your views from them, but at the same time, their comments filled the Breitbart website 鈥� you know how to harness the anger.鈥�

Bannon was insistent on his 鈥渞acism is irrelevant鈥� narrative.听鈥淣o, no. The anger is about economic聽鈥� that anger is about the $880 billion dollars to the $4.5 trillion 鈥� it鈥檚 about the wealthy 鈥� what it鈥檚 about is a set of elites that took care of themselves, and basically screwed over the American worker and the American middle class. The anger comes because people are rational. They look out there and they say, 鈥楬ey, it鈥檚 my pension fund, and my insurance policy, my insurance company, that鈥檚 the underpinning of Wall Street.'''

Again, Ferguson failed to correct this calumny with factual context. The kind of bigotry expressed in Breitbart鈥檚 comments sections, particularly its heavily antisemitic bent, has little to do with economic anxiety, and everything to do with old-fashioned racism. The alt-right ideologues who have marched in the street in Charlottesville, and Berkeley, and Portland聽and a dozen other venues the past year and a half haven鈥檛 said anything directed at economic concerns. They have instead denounced immigration, Muslims, Black Lives Matter聽and the 鈥渧iolent left.鈥�

Rather, she continued with her narrative that the racism is a byproduct of the聽nationalism instead of recognizing that the two go hand-in-hand. Bannon thus repeated his mantra that it is irrelevant.

Ferguson: Do you understand what transforms that into racism when it happens? Because it happens.

Bannon: You can beat this dog all day.

Ferguson: What you have seen is people with racist views cleave to your economic nationalism.

Bannon: But it doesn鈥檛 cleave. This is my point. The media always says, and you always come back to the same thing: "Aren鈥檛 you worried about this zero-zero-zero-point-one percent that when we put the cameras on them, say 鈥榊eah, we support that,'"聽versus the basics of the argument.听Here鈥檚 the argument: The Republican Party is being turned into a workers鈥� party. Workers in this country are finally standing up for themselves. This movement is not gonna stop, and it doesn鈥檛 matter how many liberal journalists come in here and say, oh, this is a bunch of fascists, this is a bunch of Nazis, this is a bunch of racists. This is why you have lost so much credibility 鈥� this is why the mainstream media in this country has 鈥�聽you鈥檙e arguing the point over and over.

When they can鈥檛 beat you on the facts, what they鈥檙e always going to go back and do is the same parlor trick they鈥檝e always had. And that parlor trick is very simple: They鈥檙e going to call you a racist, they鈥檙e going to call you a xenophobe. And what I said is that accusation, wear that accusation as a badge of pride, because the accusation cannot be 鈥� they can鈥檛 debate you on the facts. And they鈥檒l never debate you on the facts.

Or are those 鈥渁lternative facts鈥�? Because that, more than anything, is what Ferguson鈥檚 interview demonstrated: Far-right nationalist ideologues like Bannon will never engage public discourse in good faith, because they operate from an alternative universe of 鈥済lobalist鈥� conspiracy theories and fabricated nonsense, as well as a deliberate whitewashing of the racist undercurrents of their politics.

This is at the root of the controversy over the ABC interview, as well as Bannon鈥檚 New Yorker Festival non-appearance: It鈥檚 extremely difficult for anyone to provide a platform for an ideologue like him without simultaneously letting them extoll ideas that are toxic to any 鈥渕arketplace of ideas鈥� on which that platform depends.

Bannon about extending his influence in Australia in the past, and recent manifestations of the spread of alt-right beliefs 鈥� such as in Melbourne that turned briefly violent 鈥� suggest that he鈥檚 not wrong in looking for ripe opportunities Down Under.

Ferguson鈥檚 interview may have been intended to provide a fact-based counter-current to that momentum, but it may have given him more traction instead, precisely because it didn鈥檛 adequately challenge the realities about his brand of populist nationalism. Most of all, Bannon was freely able to paint a picture of the American political landscape in which the only effects of Trump鈥檚 versions of populist nationalism on blacks and Latinos were positive, as he described their improved employment numbers.

The reality, of course, has been that the Trump administration鈥檚 policies have been devastating for a range of minorities. Hate crimes in the United States , with a particular spike in such crimes in the first month after his election. Many of those incidents involved perpetrators or his rhetoric to threaten or intimidate minorities, which have included African Americans, Latinos, Muslims, Jews, LGBT people聽and other immigrants. Since his election, a , racism and antisemitism have spread to the far corners of the internet.

Trump policies have . They have promoted the .听 He has of transgender people from the military. His administration鈥檚 resulted in families being separated and children being held in cages at detention centers. Its deportation policies have broken up families who have lived for decades in the United States. There is hardly a minority group in America that hasn鈥檛 been聽harmed in some fashion by Trump鈥檚 populist nationalism.

That stark reality was anything but clear to Australia viewers of Bannon鈥檚 interview, as he strove to gaslight an entire continent with his skewed version of reality. Whether American viewers of his propaganda campaign 鈥� particularly those who go to see his upcoming film release, Trump At War 鈥� fare any better has yet to be seen.

Photo credit Getty Images/Martin Divisek/Bloomberg